[TLRIV]

So currently I'm in the midst of a long-running and now high-level campaign alongside old Mr. Fugu and a few others. I am playing a tiefling (sorcerer variant) Sorcerer (11)/Archmage (5), and I am leveling with the experience gained this weekend.

So, where to put it?

As far as I can tell right now, my weaknesses going forward are that I'm only pulling in 4 skill points with each level, and my survivability is poop. 56 HP as of my 16th level (about to be 17th), 28 AC.

I guess the information I seek is whether I should continue putting more into Sorcerer to 12th level and beyond, or if maybe another class might provide more benefits for matters of skills and possibly survivability. I can deal damage, I can -usually- survive in a fight thanks to multiple layers of cover such as Blur and Ghostform, but there are still things against which I am very vulnerable, and if something manages to get lucky and deal a hit, I can't take a whole lot.

I know I'm no tank, but I'm a little squishier than it seems like I should be.

[Benevolance]

For most classes, the last four levels (17-20) are basically gravy. You've already got your cool powers. But with the sorceror, you could really use a few more spell levels to get those 9th level spells. Unfortunately, most prestige classes that add +1 spell/level tend to be fairly squishy.

Based strictly on core, you could add a level of barbarian for a d12 hit die, then eldritch knight with d6 for three levels. That'll only get you to 9th level spells at level 20; not ideal, but you'll have a few more hit points. There are definitely better prestige paths you could take. Which source books are you allowed to use?

[TLRIV]

Anything that's out there is fair game. I'm pretty sure that between us we have anything that Wizards or Monte Cook published, or at least access to it.

[elliott20]

keep pumping away at those sorc levels, I say. Just start investing in spells that help you with your protection. I'm sure there's something in the spells compendium that can help you out. And start investing in Rods with metamagic feats on them for said spells. for the most bang for the buck, extended empowered.

This post has been edited by elliott20: 07 June 2009 - 07:57 PM

[Benevolance]

Why throw more good levels after bad? Sorceror levels don't get him anything more at this point than a d4 hit points and +1 level existing spellclass. There are definitely better prestige that will earn him a better hit die, and probably some special abilities to boot. I'll take a look tomorrow and see what I can suggest.

[Hans]

The AC is covered if you have bracers of armor, or can create them. Same with rings of protection, or amulet of natural armor.

Skills, rogue or bard is your friend. I'd go rogue on this one, if you want skills. Can you sneak attack with a spell?

I agree with Barbarian and then if possible take levels of Rage Mage from CW.

Pally can be thrown in there, to make better use of your charisma.

Do either the barb or pally qualify for the eldritch knight?

You could also, take paladin, beat an opponent with bare hands and take the Armored Mage(?) PrC, from CA.

Warmage can also be thrown in there. You won't get much stuff, other than able to wear armor without penalty. If you do this, I say take the extra edge feat.

You could also go cleric, but you'd only get a few divine spells, and I'm not quite sure how that would work for ya.

That's all I got.

[elliott20]

Benevolance, on Jun 8 2009, 02:02 AM, said:

Why throw more good levels after bad? Sorceror levels don't get him anything more at this point than a d4 hit points and +1 level existing spellclass. There are definitely better prestige that will earn him a better hit die, and probably some special abilities to boot. I'll take a look tomorrow and see what I can suggest.

answer: because 9th level spells rock, and by continuing his spell progression he can get more of them?

now, it's true that there are PrCs out there that will serve his purpose better, I just don't know what they are off the top of my head. I'm sure one of those archmage type PrCs will do him some good. anything else that doesn't advance his spell casting is probably not the most optimized option.

[Benevolance]

You didn't read my post. :P

He's already done the archmage PrC fully, so he needs to dip into another PrC to get his +2 levels spell progression and nab that 9th level spells. The nice thing is that most arcane PrCs make arcane spell casting the pre-req.

If you have Toughness and Great Fortitude (unlikely, I know) you could take Blood Magus. It's a d6 HD that continues spell casting and includes a few special features, including auto-stabilization when dying.

In addition to the Bbn/Eldritch Knight combo above, you could do the same with Rage Mage. It's not really an optimal solution, power-wise, but it will get you greater hit points, and you'll hit 9th level spells, but only at level 20. Along this vein, Spellsword will allow you to cast spells in armour, but you'll only hit 9th level spells at 20 and you'll need a fighter level before qualifying for the class.

The Incantrix from Dragon Magazine 339 doesn't get you better hit points, but it does grant you Spell Resistance. You don't heal normally or magically, but arcane spells cast on you that your SR stops grants you +1d4 hit points per spell level.

If you Polymorph Any Object and become a dwarf and take a level of fighter, you can qualify for the Runesmith class from Races of Stone. The advantage here is a significant boost to AC, since you do not suffer arcane failure for spells that you cast from Runes. I do not recall how many runes you can make in a day, though. But you'd at least upgrade to a d6 hit die and get full caster progression.

I have heard that the Abjurant Champion from Complete Mage is most excellent, but I do not have that book and have not checked out that class.

[TLRIV]

Awesome advice, I'm going to look into that.

Keep it coming if you come up with more suggestions. I have 'til the weekend to make a decision.

The Abjurant Champion is cool, but seems far more suited to a primarily martial character who has multiclassed (like Paladin 11/Sorcerer 5)

[elliott20]

Abjuration Champion, from what I read, is very much a gish character capstone.

It's the same with my other favorite caster PrC, Jade Phoenix Mage.

I would have recommended that if he had more levels to go, but then he'll miss out on at least 2 levels of caster level increase and JPM is not really worth it unless you can go the distance and take it all the way.

[Hans]

Add in some monk levels? You won't get any more spells, but you will get a few more skill points, more hit points, a flurry of attacks that will be at a BAB of +0/+0 by third level. I'm fairly confident that you have a few touch spells in your arsenal, so the touch delivery shouldn't be an area of concern, as I also think you get evasion. Don't quote me on that though.

I gathered that you weren't really looking to increase your spell level as you were to get non squishy, and increase survivability.

I would suggest a druid, but I don't think that would work at this point.

[TLRIV]

Increasing spell level is a consideration, but moreso increasing skill point collection. Survivability is important, but not as much so as those two things.

[Hans]

Rogue, as I'm sure you're aware, is the king of skills, and skill points. Evasion at 2nd level.

Bard, is the secondary skill collector. Bard spells included.

Monk, has decent skills. Evasion at second level.

How about hex warrior from CW, or another class?

[Benevolance]

Are there particular skills you are looking to boost? That will make a big difference for class recommendations.

Edit: The Loremaster PrC won't improve your survivability at all hit-point wise, but it upgrades to 4 skill points per level, some bonus abilities, and maintains your full caster progression. I do not recall if the Secret is based on Loremaster level + Int or Character level + Int, but either way I assume your Int probably isn't super? You also need several metamagics and a skill focus feat to qualify. Rather high pre-reqs intended for Wizards, rather than Sorcerors.

If you meet the pre-reqs, the Master Filcher from Dragon 310 has d6 hit die, and 6 skill points, but slower spell progression.

Edit edit: You should consider Mindspy. It won't advance your spells or skills much, but it will improve your combat survivability with a d8 hit die, and the special ability grants you a +1 insight bonus to AC (max bonus = Cha stat) against an enemy that you are mindreading. As you progress, the mind reading becomes more automatic. Take a look and see if the first four levels are something that would improve your character.

Edit^3: I'm assuming the campaign ends around level 20, but that might be wrong. Are you guys going to epic levels?

[TLRIV]

It hasn't been expressly discussed, but I anticipate the characters, if not the campaign, will extend into epic levels, as they wouldn't be our first to do so. In anticipation of that, I'm pretty much lumping everything into Spellcraft now, and my concern is that my 4 skill points per level just aren't going to add up to much.

[elliott20]

well, if spell level increase is not your top priority, but skill points, hit points and other options ARE. Rogue is not a bad choice. HOWEVER, in this case, I could also recommend Swordsage from Tome Of Battle. Over all, just a much stronger class than a Rogue. Rogue BAB, d6 hit points, 6 skill points per level, AND if you want, you can pick up the unarmed variant of the Swordsage so you get unarmed strike progression. Pick up superior unarmed strike feat and you can further boost the unarmed strike damage. Plus, your initiator level for the swordsage is not just based on your swordsage class level, but also based on half of your character class level. So you'd be able to start off at an IL of 9, which instantly gives you level 4 swordsage maneuvers.

And if you anticipate still getting another say, 10 levels ahead of you, you can even pick up the Jade Phoenix Mage PrC which gives you an awesome amount of perks like rebirth, etc.

[Benevolance]

I started a long post, and then Adobe crashed my explorer. So you get a short bullet form post!

If you're only worried about the one skill, you've got 4 levels to dump into spellcraft. Unless you've put no ranks into the skill so far, you should be able to top that up. If I read correctly, you're getting 4 skill points per level as a sorceror.

To that end, I'd definitely focus on a class that is going to continue your caster progression (to get epic spell slots) and hopefully give you some cool abilities along the way. Epic spells are going to make you much more effective. I seem to recall the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil being a strong defensive caster (abilities are based on the prismatic spray).

And I'll toss this out there, because it's my favorite class: arcane trickster. You'll have to give up three levels to rogue, so it's going to sap your casting abilities. But it's going to add sneak attack damage to any spells that you make attack rolls with. So greater invisibility (or other form of concealment) combined with a ray attack and you add extra damage. +2d6 initially, but it'll grow. You'll also be able to inflict some touch spells at range. It is, I believe, one of the meanest classes in the game.

The advantage is two-fold. The three levels lost to rogue will improve your BAB, HD and give you all the skill points you need to enter the class, even though you'll give up three levels of caster, so you can definitely enter this prestige class no matter what. Secondly, it's abilities improve your ranged attacks, keeping you further from the line of attack. Though you do need to be at least in 30', if you're wandering dungeons this shouldn't be an issue. But the further you are from being hit, the less your low hit points matter. If an enemy has to move to hit you, it can only hit you once! Unless it's a puma.

The initiate of the sevenfold veil is more defensively minded, however. You'll be able to throw up protective barriers that keep enemies away from you. Or, if they close, at least they suffer damage before doing so.

[TLRIV]

Right now I'm leaning toward either continuing on my current path and taking another Sorc level or a level of Blood Magus. Arcane Trickster is on the table right away, as our DM usually doesn't mind overlooking prerequisites for PrCs. Or, at least, modifying them somewhat. That's something I'd have to discuss with him.

So, assuming all of those are possibilities, what are your thoughts?

[Benevolance]

The advantage of taking those sorceror levels is that once you hit epic class levels, you get those bonus epic feats every three or four levels. The downside is that as a Sorceror 11/Archmage 5, you need 12 more levels or sorceror before you get that first bonus Epic feat. Only you can know if you're group is likely to make it to level 28...

Between sorceror and arcane trickster, if the DM will forgive the pre-req +2d6 sneak attack and skill requirements, you're way better off in Arcane trickster. Better saves (REF/WILL), better skill points (4+INT), and the ranged special abilities in addition to full casting.

The Blood Magus doesn't really advance your spell casting, although it does add some thematic flavour to the character. I can't find my copy of Complete Arcane at the moment, so I cannot really comment fully on the Blood Mage abilities. It seems to me you give up some casting progression for the special abilities, but I think you get better hit points and skill points.

The blood mage abilities are probably more useful to your character than the Arcane Trickster abilities, however, since the Arcane Trickster mostly furthers rogue abilities. Since you don't really have any rogue abilities to stack with, you're mostly just taking it for caster progression and better skill points and saves.

[elliott20]

IMHO, blood magus, in light of the fact that it doesn't advance your spell caster level, would be a poor choice. The extra 1 hp and 2 skill points per level are just not worth a caster level, if you ask me.

initiate of the seven fold, however, sounds promising.

[Benevolance]

I would recommend actually recommend Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil over the Arcane Trickster. Especially since Epic levels will allow you to take all 7 levels of the class, and it's got some pretty hefty defensively-damaging abilities. I love the arcane trickster because it doubles up rogue/arcane abilities, and I'm a tactically a natural rogue in combat and adventuring.

But ultimately this depends on group composition. Are you the group's main artillery caster? If you are, then those extra spellcaster levels are important. But if your group is large enough, or you are not the sole artillery caster, you can more easily dip into another class. And I think blood magus is every other level for casting advancement? In the grand scheme of things, that won't put you much behind. Giving up a level or two of casting isn't that big a deal, especially if it gets you the skill points and hit points you need.

[TLRIV]

Blood Magus is +1 level of existing class for every level of Blood Magus except 10th.

The group comp is as such: My character (tiefling Sorc 11/Archmage 5), Fugu's character (halfling barbarian I think, 16) are being pursued by the other two PCs, a druid and a dwarven half dragon thing.

I really like some of the Sevenfold Veil things (especially the Breath Weapon protection a little later on).

Am I better off dipping into one of those than staying Sorcerer?

[Benevolance]

I think so, yes. The main draw of the sorceror class is going to be epic feats and familiar progression. But as I pointed out, you won't get an epic bonus feat until Character Level 28, and I don't know if you really care about a familiar.

The blood magus is actually very viable for you then. Either Blood Magus or Initiate of the Seven Fold will advance your casting abilities. The Blood Magus might be a little better, since it's got 10 levels instead of 7, depending on how high you think the campaign might go. But I think power-wise, the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil makes for a better caster.

[Hans]

What I like about the Blood Magus is the Homonuclus that you get. The Awaken Blood and Blood Jump (?) abilities are also cool. However, they're rather costly, and the last two abilities you won't get until later on in the PrC.

The Arcane Trickster or Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil may be better. I hadn't thought of the Arcane Trickster, but I'd go for it.

[Benevolance]

Out of curiosity, are you and Fugu likely to be fighting the other two PCs that are following you?

[TLRIV]

Yes, that is very likely.

[Benevolance]

How many levels do you think you have before they catch you? Presumably, Fugu's barbarian can and will go toe-to-toe with the half-dragon dwarf fighter?

If I were running the druid, I would hang back. I'd send my animal companion to harry the sorceror, let the half-dragon engage the barbarian. I would concentrate my first few rounds on Summon Nature's Ally to bring some extra combatants into play. First a large constrictor to grapple the sorceror and free up my animal companion, then large/huge earth elementals to flank the Barbarian. And while the sorceror was grappled, I would drop flame-strikes on the sorceror until he (and probably the constrictor) was dead. Then I would shape-change into a huge elemental or dire bear and go grapple the barbarian until the half-dragon finished him off.

If you're lucky, the combat will start without either side getting to buff much, because the other side has access to much better buff spells. The druid is likely weak vs Reflex saves, and probably has a mediocre touch AC. Rays are your friend.

If you have the Maze spell, that is one effective way to eliminate the animal companion. There is no saving throw, and it is impossible for it to succeed on a DC 20 intelligence check to escape the maze before the 10 minutes elapse. That could probably apply to either the Druid or the Half-dragon, too. It's an 8th level spell, but you get to add another 8th level spell known this level. Negate two combatants, finish the third, wait for the others to pop in. That'd put the numbers back in your favour. > :D

[elliott20]

celerity from PHB2 is your friend there. With that, you'll always win initiative. So cast it every morning before you do anything else.

Cast time stop on your winning init round, then cast flight (to get around all the land based critters the druid can pull out), greater invisibility, force cage the druid, and spam as many damage spells as you'd want. Or you can use any number of save or die spells. the invisibility and the flight should take care of MOST the druid's offensive abilities. a couple spell SR buffs should take care of the rest. And in case the druid himself has SR stuff, pick up some "Orb of" spells, since those spells gets around SR and Anti-magic fields.

[TLRIV]

Well, I ended up never making a decision, so now I effectively have another week. I just sort of went up a level in everything that will go up anyway with a +1 arcane spellcasting class PrC without any benefits of said PrC yet.

I found some homebrew "High Sorcerer" PrC that seems like it's basically an extension of Archmage, so I've been looking over that and seeing if some things can be adjusted into something better.

Here's a link if someone wants to look over it and give their thoughts and what works or what doesn't work about it. The main High Arcana feat that interests me is the "True Sorcery" one. Personally, I think having to sacrifice a 9, 8, 7, 6 and 5 spell per day slot is a slightly steep cost, which is why I'd like someone else to look over it and give their thoughts.

http://www.angelfire...20Sorcerer.html

[elliott20]

metamastery is pretty awesome.